Bishops Rock, Choper Challenge II. The return.

09 Jul 2018 12:56 #39249 by Vodoun da Vinci
So there is no vetting process or accountability for uploading/contributing "improved" Scenery? Folks just tart shit up and it gets uploaded for anyone to download via TerraSync? :pinch:

I'm completely baffled about my FGFS install - from a fresh install with only base scenery that comes with FGFS 2018.2.2 my machine runs like a scalded dog. Everything is perfect. The moment I start to install certain tiles, either via the Graphical Interface or via TerraSync I start to get problems - Very slow startup of FGFs (Like 20 minutes!) can't exit. Can't even shut it down via Task Manager as it overwhelms my entire System.

Glichy/lagging FGFS flight....lock ups and uber slow frame rates. Just a mess. Delete Scenery and all becomes good again. I have updated all my antivirus and anti malware apps and run them....I have deleted all extraneous software and de fragged my drives. Maybe it's my machine *but* all the issues originate from FGFS Scenery.

I know it's paranoia but it seems if if someone has seeded FGFS Scenery with code that attacks my callsign....few others are experiencing the issues. The only way I can clear it is to wipe FGFS off my machine and re install and until I add additional scenery it runs fantastically. I'm supposed to put together a FlightNight Flight for this weekend but I have no scenery outside of the base Scenery included in a fresh install. :(

Still playing with trying to fix this and burning up hours and hours of time....I'll try a fresh install and a different callsign and stay away from added scenery/TerraSync but for right now FGFS is simply a Dead Duck for me. Frustrated beyond resolution.

VooDoo

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09 Jul 2018 13:04 #39250 by enrogue
VooDoo - the only time I have seen issues like that was on a test machine with a crap wifi interface which got killed by terrasync

That machine *only* works if I use --disable-terrasync in the command line options - like you, it sits there killing itself for 20 minutes every startup attempting to check/sync the airports folder (if I remember correctly)

Here's the odd bit - it works fine if the terrasync folder is on a network drive... AAARGH

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09 Jul 2018 13:05 #39251 by enrogue
Oh and I just got the crap scared out of me by a pair of V-22 Osprey passing over my house at very high speed and low level (London!)
The following user(s) said Thank You: Vodoun da Vinci

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09 Jul 2018 14:54 #39253 by Algernon
Exercise for rapid response during Trump visit, I guess? Can't think of any other reason... maybe that's how he's getting to the Ambassador's house in Regent's Park, rather than motorcade, which isn't really suited to Central London

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09 Jul 2018 15:05 #39255 by Algernon
Regarding your issues, VooDoo, how old is your hard drive and motherboard? It's possible it just can't handle the amount of information coming in that an FGFS scenery download inflicts upon it... that does seem to tie in with the symptoms...

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09 Jul 2018 15:08 #39256 by enrogue
Regarding I/O from Terrasync, my thoughts have been along the lines of a possible issue/interaction with antivirus

I need to do some testing on the machine that shows the issue

What AV do you use Voodoo?

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09 Jul 2018 16:19 - 09 Jul 2018 16:20 #39257 by Vodoun da Vinci
I'm using AVG Free. The Motherboard and drives are 8 years old - I'll be bringing my laptop home from work and working up a FGFS 2018.2.2 install from scratch this evening to see if the issues persist.

I'm way due for a new computer and want to use the existing case and 850 watt PS and fans and go with an updated MB and SSD for FGFS. I'm running an EVGA GeForce GTX-970 4 Gig graphics card and I'm dreadfully short of RAM.. It has not escaped me that the computer isn't up to FGFS *but* it runs like a scalded dog with the "out of the box" scenery which is every bit as intense (Hawaii) as anything else.

The issues only begin when I install scenery tiles from Europe or the UK and they are no more graphically demanding than the stock scenery which works fine.

Additionally I have software programs that record directly to my hard drives (Recording - Presonus Studio One) and even when playing/recording multiple tracks at very high sample rates I have very low latency and absolutely no lagging or problems. I have learned in the past that running this many tracks with effects real time will often drag computers with issues reading/writing to disc to their knees very quickly or produce latency that is positively palpable. I have a few demanding graphics programs on the computer including GPU Caps Viewer which can be configured to drag literally any Graphics card and Computer to it's knees and my computer isn't having any trouble running stuff that any other similar machine handles.

It's not impossible it's the machine but it's awful specific that it's only picking on FGFS when other applications that are just as demanding are having no issues. We'll know more tonight as I have been running FGFS on my work laptop with only base Scenery and it has been fine. Let's see if this computer can run FGFS and added scenery and that'll be the acid test.

VooDoo

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09 Jul 2018 16:45 #39261 by Algernon
Although your machine might run professional audio recording software fine, don't rule out hardware - because that sort of software absolutely stands or falls by getting audio down on the hard drive with low error, low latency reliability. They invest tons of money and resources into making sure that works, otherwise the software is useless. I'm pretty sure FGFS doesn't take it nearly that seriously - so it could be a case of "It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it..."

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09 Jul 2018 16:50 #39262 by enrogue
Regarding latency in reading/writing streams vs Terrasync:

What TerraSync appears to do is check the whole of the Airports directory on startup - it contains only 49Mb but it's made up of 60000+ files (at least on my mirror, the dirindex files add extra)

thats a *whole* lot of *random* reads & a *lot* of checksums or date/size checks (I haven't looked at the code to see what it's doing)

Maybe it calms down after it's verified everything - I'm just going to repeat a few times with my Windows VM to see what happens

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09 Jul 2018 17:08 #39263 by Vodoun da Vinci
Uh Oh.....I think I have a solution. My cheesy work laptop runs FGFS 2017.3.1 with TerraSync and all the bells and whistles flawlessly here at work - even in the Terrain that is bringing my home computer to grief.

Something is F'd....this machine has a fraction of the graphics processing my home PC has but it *does* have one thing my home PC does not have. It is running Windows 10 where as my home PC is running Windows 7.

Folks who are running FGFS on Windows...anyone still running Windows 7?

VooDoo

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09 Jul 2018 17:51 #39264 by enrogue
I don't have anything running Win 7 any more, but I'm sure there are some diehards :)

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09 Jul 2018 17:53 #39265 by Porcius
Yes mate - Windows 7 Ultimate.

Porcy

Lightning DOES strike twice.

Watchmen Quote - "I am looking at the stars.... Thier light takes so long to reach us. All we ever see of Stars are thier old photographs"

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09 Jul 2018 18:11 #39266 by StuartC
My Diagnostic PC runs W7 and Fg 2017.3.1, it reads all the scenery over the network from my PC though.

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09 Jul 2018 20:09 #39267 by enrogue
I have to say that this really isn't a graphics issue from what I can see

When I start up FG on the Windows Virtual Machine with TerraSync enabled it takes forever (~10 minutes if using a mirror on the internet) to start up while it checks the sync of the necessary directories, and then even when its started & on the tarmac, it's still sitting there syncing in the background maxing the CPU out with all it's checks

When I start up with it using a scenery directory and --disable-terrasync, it starts up faster & settles down to using about 50% CPU - this is on a VM with a Core i3-3320M processor (dual core HT)

Same graphics settings, sitting still at EGOD: with terrasync: 18fps, without terrasync, 29fps

The VM is using Windows Defender for AV - I might try disabling it and/or a different one

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09 Jul 2018 20:15 #39268 by J Maverick 16
Getting back to the scenery topic, now this drives me nuts:

scenery.flightgear.org/app.php?c=Objects...ountry=&description=

That's like page 45 (yeah been scrolling all that) and those are some of my recent additions to RAF bases and as you can see starting from that point onwards all the ground elevations ain't sorted out yet (-9999) which means until it's done, ALL those objects won't show up on TerraSync meaning to me that as of now it's just pointless to keep uploading stuff 'cause it'd just overwhelm the whole thing.
I sent a kind of complaint to the mailing list to see what's the problem with that, especially after the website got down because of some hacking and other shit last month (some related to the MP maps downage) and I hope they're gonna get it up and working again.

And to undirectly quote VooDoo's conspiracy theories, it seems that sometimes wherever I go, shit happens out of nowhere. I mean, from what I know the scenemodels website hadn't got major issues lately, but since I've started uploading my works, weird things started to unfold. (End of the stupid grumble)
Mav

Breakin' the sound barrier every day.
Oh God, that's EGOD!
Celebrating 1000 MP flight hours

FG 2018.2.1 - iMac 27" (Mid 2010) w/ OS X 10.12

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10 Jul 2018 01:41 - 10 Jul 2018 01:48 #39269 by Algernon
We're getting places now.

VooDoo, I reckon the next step - and please let it be the next step, not the last step - is to exactly emulate what enrogue is doing. Use FGRun to put the --disable-terrasync option into the command line, getting the scenery from a minimal local or network file of scenery, and see what happens. Enrogue's experiments seem to point towards a hell of a lot of system resources being used by Terrasync, and in an extremely inefficient manner.

Remember, there was a massive sea-change between Win7 and Win10, and that is highly likely to include things like the efficiency of reading and writing to disk. That migration also marked the shift in Microsoft aligning themselves much more closely with the "big data" model of collecting and harvesting data - I can easily believe they would make a huge change in the way Windows works without feeling the need to tell anybody, because all of a sudden it's all about using your data for profit, and not about your hardware working properly. I'm afraid I believe that's all too possible with Microsoft - unless you're using Windows the way they want to use it, they don't care about fucking you over, in fact, it suits their purpose. They hope you'll just upgrade and not ask any questions. I'm one of those guys who always wants to believe there is a non-malicious explanation, but I am struggling to think that way now - it's either malice or massive incompetence.

Mav, regarding the "conspiracy theories", it's getting really hard for me to believe that there isn't some malice going on somewhere, which isn't being mitigated by the core FG team because of their ignorance/idiocy/apathy or even complicity. I used to think it was just too fucking stupid to actually be intentional - but based on the evidence many of us are seeing, I seriously think that it really is that fucking stupid. My advice would be to hold back on submissions for now - if there IS malicious intent happening somewhere, or just massive stupidity, you'd be best served by dropping out of it for now. You'd just be wasting your own time, and potentially making yourself a suspect (as you said yourself, weird things are happening since you started doing it). Let's try and figure out what's going on - and I'm now almost certain something is going on - and form a well-grounded theory before we take any more action. But lets do it fast.

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10 Jul 2018 01:46 #39270 by Algernon
Also, the people who are having the most problems are VooDoo and Porcy - both running Win7. We haven't considered the possibility that there was a change in the way FGFS deals with Windows that suddenly made it clunky with older Windows versions. The FGFS team would quite happily make an alteration like that without feeling the need to tell anybody - their organisation, and their regard for their end users, are completely and utterly shit.

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10 Jul 2018 06:34 #39272 by enrogue
Mav got a reply from Torsten on the mailing list - it's just that Torsten has recently moved the whole scenery database setup from his home machine to AWS & it's been challenging to get it running on a headless system with all the dependencies working correctly

If I remember correctly he initiated the move from the home machine to AWS as the scenery system on his home machine came under attack

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10 Jul 2018 06:46 #39273 by enrogue
See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

“cock-up, not conspiracy”

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10 Jul 2018 08:11 #39275 by J Maverick 16
Haven't read the email yet as I won't be able to get on my Mac till this afternoon but I guessed it was related to that (unfortunately Torsten has to pay himself for keeping up the whole infrastructure, that's why he put "donate" buttons on all his websites), the "conspiracy thing" was just a "WTF thought" :ohmy: .

Fact remains that recently FG keeps having some issues on stable releases and I had (and still have some) problems too. Thank God core devs are reviewing how releases are managed throughout the year even though I'm not that much convinced of how they want to make it.

Anyway, the scenemodels issue is delaying my development plans by a lot: have 20+ airports on the list awaiting for submission, without counting extra work placing objects not by airports, or checking FlightNight locations for possible improvements or fixes, done it a few times before recent happenings.
E.g. EGHE will not show up anymore those planes in parking pos but I've added a tower and a hangar which could match RL.
Did the same kind of work for PHTO, using the philosophy of "take out some, put in some".
Oh and one more thing: because the F-35 was keeping me busy approaching the Ark Royal when Stu asked for volunteers for this week, considering VooDoo's present issues with his FG, I am available to put up a plan if needed for Saturday.
Mav

Breakin' the sound barrier every day.
Oh God, that's EGOD!
Celebrating 1000 MP flight hours

FG 2018.2.1 - iMac 27" (Mid 2010) w/ OS X 10.12

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