Politically Incorrect Fun with Guns

15 May 2018 20:58 #38529 by Vodoun da Vinci
I'd love to see real, honest, open dialog about doing something. Unfortunately it always seems to be 1 or 0, black or white, or some bumper sticker BS. This is a very complex issue and no one wants to talk about it - the typical gun owner does not want his Right to possess infringed on and the other side wants everything banned no exceptions. There is little common ground.

I think most modern gun owners in America would love to see this settled and I doubt many of them would have a problem with restrictions based on licensing, age, knowledge of proper use and laws, transportation of, handling of, etc....I personally believe there should be an amount of verified training ( a lot of verified training) testing, licensing, finger prints, mental/emotional evaluation. And when that criteria is met and that individual is vetted and licensed he should be legal to own and carry, possess and shoot *anything* anywhere it is legal. He should be able to conceal firearms *anywhere* at any time. But only if licensed, trained, vetted, bonded and insured.

But the environment now is too...old school. The modern world is changing very quickly and there is literally no precedent for a lot of what is going to happen. We have to change but there are folks all over trying to "get over" on their fellow citizens who have differing points of view and tolerance. My State (Illinois) has the toughest testing and most stringent test requirements in the US for a Concealed Carry License...it wasn't cheap or easy for me to obtain one . My proficiency shooting score was the highest in my class. Yet there was a group that petitioned the State Police for a list of concealed carry licensees and their addresses and contact information.

This group wanted to publish this list as a way of calling out everyone licensed so that everyone in my neighborhood would know that I am licensed, what weapons I posses, etc.

This kind of thing does not make me very willing to "settle" or compromise with anti gunners. I walk around with concealed weapons all the time - haven't shot anyone yet and likely never will. I don't intimidate people....I'm not aggressive to the point that I don't even allow myself to get angry when driving or flip someone the 'Bird. As my teacher told me, these kinds of things can escalate a road rage incident into a gun fight. I digress....

Most gunners in the US would love to have an open and sincere dialog but that will never come because the "other side" wants me disarmed and makes no bones about that. No compromise....disarm.

Nope. We need middle ground.

VooDoo

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15 May 2018 21:47 #38530 by StuartC
first word from me n the subject.
You want middle ground, howabout this - keep your guns but they can only fire nerf tipped ammo ( non lethal )
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15 May 2018 23:09 #38531 by Vodoun da Vinci
That'll work great until one of us is standing at the local Quick Stop for fuel and a pack of smokes and some jackass walks in the door, points a gun at the cashier, and tells everybody in the place to go prone or tries to herd us into the back room so he can shoot us in the head and take whatever he wants when we are dead.

I'll take lead in that case....having been there when this happened a few years ago.

This is a different culture. When the Criminal Element discovers we cannot/will not defend ourselves we have had it.

I love nerf guns at work when we are playing but if I pull one of my CCL pistols to save my Life I want lead projectiles. God help me.And that happens here in the USA unfortunately. We might be tempted to think that banning all the guns and ammunition might stop that but it won't. 300. Million.Guns. Here in the US. One for every man, woman, and child. If they change the law us law abiding citizens will turn them in.

The criminals? Not so much.

Here's a statistic nobody hears about...Concealed Carry License holders, those folks who have licenses to carry a concealed weapon in the US, are statistically the most law abiding citizens. Few arrests for brandishing, no confrontations or arrests of any kind. Folks with guns are model citizens, not thugs and whackos.. Yet some of us are reviled as the source of the violence problem when, in fact, we have reduced random handgun violence every successive year. My fellow country men are safer and less likely to be assaulted when I am present and armed.

Licensed and vetted concealed carry aficionados are reducing random violence in America and are the most legal and law abiding of all...they don't speed, they don't argue, they don't jaywalk and they don't threaten. Why?

Because they have paid thousands of dollars and trained like maniacs to have this. We don't threaten or strut and nobody knows. But they are safer because we are in the room. Why should we be penalized and disarmed? Why should I be scrutinized when my finger prints are on file and I have proof/vetting that I am proficient (more proficient than Police Officers!) and am law abiding beyond reproach.

CCL holders in this country are the best of the best and law abiding statistically beyond question. But we need to turn in our guns and the criminals, who won't and don't, are left to herd us into the back room and have their way.

Nope. I'll go down swinging if it comes to that. Change the Constitution and make *me* a criminal for possession of a firearm. Then get a warrant for my arrest and come to my house and collect my guns.

That's the way this needs to proceed. I will not willingly limit my ability (in the current environment) to defend myself using any weapons or means necessary. With all due respect - you guys, my friends and family across the ocean, don't get it. It's violent here and not because of the guns - we have created a sick, sick, sick society and I'm just trying to live here. As long as possible.

VooDoo

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16 May 2018 00:33 - 16 May 2018 00:34 #38532 by Algernon

Vodoun da Vinci wrote: With all due respect - you guys, my friends and family across the ocean, don't get it. It's violent here and not because of the guns - we have created a sick, sick, sick society and I'm just trying to live here. As long as possible.

I think I do get it, to a certain extent, being in regular contact with a number of Americans in different states and with different viewpoints - I spend a lot of my time playing out audio in a studio overnight, and while doing that, I read and engage in debate on a number of platforms. So if not actually experienced, I am at least informed. And I couldn't agree with you more.

While I think it's impolite at best to go on about what one thinks is wrong with someone else's country, and I wouldn't usually do it here amongst friends, the immensity of the social problems is utterly staggering. I don't think I could face the pressures the middle class are under, nor the injustices the poor and minorities are faced with in the USA. It makes me outraged, frightened and concerned for my friends and loved ones there. And I do not think there is any solution while, as VooDoo says above, people are moving apart instead of trying to find middle ground. I am in complete agreement there too - polarisation is everywhere, but nowhere in the West is it more conspicuous than in the US.

I don't think any form of mass disarmament is any kind of solution. You would not be able to keep live ammunition away from perpetrators of crime, you'd just end up with them being firing live while the "good guys with guns" weren't. There needs to be a middle-ground solution on guns, but even if there were, guns are only one part of a multi-faceted social problem.
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16 May 2018 16:00 - 16 May 2018 16:17 #38538 by Vodoun da Vinci

Algernon wrote:
While I think it's impolite at best to go on about what one thinks is wrong with someone else's country, and I wouldn't usually do it here amongst friends, the immensity of the social problems is utterly staggering. I don't think I could face the pressures the middle class are under, nor the injustices the poor and minorities are faced with in the USA. It makes me outraged, frightened and concerned for my friends and loved ones there. And I do not think there is any solution while, as VooDoo says above, people are moving apart instead of trying to find middle ground. I am in complete agreement there too - polarisation is everywhere, but nowhere in the West is it more conspicuous than in the US.


These things are hard to talk about.....I don't pretend to know/understand how folks differ culturally from the US in various other countries and try very hard not to judge them. We are living in a cave here in America.

But you are correct, Algy, and have hit the nail on the head. The reason for mass murders increasing in frequency/severity even while overall violent crime in America is decreasing is directly related to the pressure that "everyday" and average Americans are under. It is literally breaking people Mentally, Physically, and Spiritually. We (you and I and Geed and Stuart) have many times discussed this kind of thing via TeamSpeak. Literally I can walk into work today (I'll use myself as the example) and for any reason or *no* reason what so ever I can lose my job. Fired with or without cause at the drop of the hat....I am an "At Will" Employee and can lose my livelyhood instantly if my Boss decides I need to go or they can't afford me. My Employer pays 50% of my Healthcare Insurance costs of approximately $1200 per month. I basically lose that at the end of the month if I lose my job *unless* I carry my policy forward on COBRA which allows me to maintain my coverage for 18 months but I must pay the entire cost of the insurance. So Imagine now that I walk in the door on Monday and lose my job and at the same time inherit a $1200 bill to keep my only chance at Healthcare. No income and now my base living expenses just increased by $1200 a month....and now imagine the we pay (literally) 2X as much for base healthcare as the rest of the world. Even with my insurance, the first $8000 is out of pocket - my insurance pays not. One. Cent. Until I have spent $8000.

Now imagine I lose my job and get a $1200 a month bill and then get diagnosed with a serious illness and shuck $8000 out of my pocket for MRI's, Xrays, Diagnostics, etc. Literally when my Wife was sick we spent $8000 the first *day* of her illness. The common knowledge here in America is that people lose their homes and end up broke and homeless because they are stupid, lazy, uneducated, or drugged out but the fact of the matter is that 70% of the home lost in America is due to the exact scenario I am describing....Illness or loss of a job (before, during or after the illness) destroys people's Life Savings in hours/days. And there aren't gonna be more jobs (only less jobs from here into the future) and, no, they don't have to treat you if you can't pay. The people losing everything are not statistics and they don;t all live in Scumbucketville. The people losing their homes and families are ny neighbors and friends and family...people who are educated and law abiding and have worked hard for decades and raised children and are good people. These folks are not nebulous nothings only seen on the back page of a newspaper or sleeping under a bridge. These people are my neighbors. I could be next.

And we wonder why people crack. This aspect alone is terrifying....one can lose everything due to not buttering the Boss the way he wants and an illness that cannot be predicted. It hits US like a brick every morning at breakfast and wakes us up every night. We are all literally living day to day. Some people crack to this pressure and end up sitting in the living room rocking quietly back and forth and crying softly until the can stand it no longer and they end their pain by ending their lives. And the anti gun folks use that bullet thru the brain as proof of another gun related crime/death.


We are all literally living day to day. Some people crack to this pressure and end up sitting in the living room rocking quietly back and forth and crying softly until the can stand it no longer and they end their pain by walking into work and killing everything that moves before they end their lives. And the anti gun folks use that bullet thru the brain as proof of another gun related crime/death.

We need to fix the "Thing" that makes people crack and become mass murderers. We are making these incidents...we are building sick sons of bitches and they are killing our kids and our neighbors. We need to stop pushing peoples buttons until they crack ('cause sometimes what crawls out of the cracked critter is very, very, scary....) and that means a real plan for making a living and a real plan for universal health care and a real plan for sustained retirement for people who have paid their way for 50 years with hard work and lawful cooperation.

And that's not likely in this Oligarchy controlled, Fascist Capitalist Free for All called The United States of America in the near future. We can take all the weapons away that we want but The Cracked Ones will use cars, hammers, or big rocks.

I'm sorry that this thread has gone where it has gone and fear I have pushed to hard to make my point and I apologize and promise to not bring this kind of thing up again publicly here at FGUK. It's too dark to discuss this with people I adore and respect (the entire FGUK Community) and inappropriate. So, we'll leave this alone to fall off the board please.

And thank you.

VooDoo

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16 May 2018 17:15 #38539 by StuartC
The answer to the health payments is don't live in the US of A. The Answer to better working conditions is don't live in the US of A..... ( im seeing a pattern here )
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16 May 2018 19:43 #38540 by hans05
I generally find this topic too hard to dare to write about it and not get it all wrong.
Nevertheless I dare state one small detail: I feel that the "outside of USA" world is closing up to the conditions in USA.
At least in Germany, France and Switzerland I think that I have enough insight to have a valid opinion about some things. And I see egoism and intolerance growing exponentially in these countries. The slowest in Switzerland but still. So I kind of agree to Stuart that it would do good to USA if "normal" people would start to leave it. But where would they go? I forecast that "our" world here in Germany is only 10-20 years back compared to USA but on the very same road to that we will have similar conditions like that USA has today.

I would have much more to say, but again, for me writing is not appropriate for a difficult topic like this. Just that I think that Voodoo is analyzing the social landscape absolutely correctly :-(
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16 May 2018 23:58 - 17 May 2018 00:06 #38542 by Algernon
OK dude, I'm ready to lock this one down. :)

It's my view that it's cool to talk about politics and all that when it's on the level, but inevitably it will always get somewhere where somebody finds it too difficult or dark. I think that when just one person feels that way, we should respect that and bow out. It's a deeply emotive issue, and I think we could all find more to say, but honestly, if this was a conversation about my own country, I'd have had enough by now.

So I'm done on this topic. But I want to thank VooDoo and Gary for some very useful insight - this is all stuff it's really important for us all to understand, as we're seeing international turmoil at a level that I think is worse than even at the height of the Cold War.

But finally, can I just say that I love the US, and most of the Americans I know are amazing people to continue to survive with all the issues that VooDoo has just described. I desperately want things to improve, and just maybe, post-Trump, the new low of the current administration will energise those pushing for change enough to achieve some.

God Bless the United States of America. She needs it, and 99% of her citizens absolutely deserve it.
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17 May 2018 00:19 - 17 May 2018 00:26 #38543 by Vodoun da Vinci
Hans, you are correct. This deception and Pain is global. America is suffering immensely right now but the condition is that Global Oligarchy/Fascist Capitalism is driving people insane. The Modern Global Community has transcended being able to evaluate every criteria and Right by the law of capital.

If the world is to grow and we as Humans are to continue to prosper Mentally, Physically, and Spiritually then the whole "money" and wealth" shit needs to go away.

We can (Globally) feed, house, educate, and medicate everyone, *everyone*, if we stop worrying about who has the most money and power. We can nurture everyone but not is .01% of us need to have 10KX what everyone else has. The resources need to be distributed by an order of need..not want. Power belongs in the hands of those who are humbled by the faith invested in them by The People. Not in the hands of the Wealthy.

This is a Global issue but America is suffering first because we are obsessed with money/wealth/power instead of good Life and nurturing. Taking things (weapons, rights, money, stuff) away from common working people will not solve it. I don;t have a solution but more Bullying is not the answer. We can have it all...all of us all over the world.

But not if we continue to allow .01% of the population to control 90% of the resources and crush anyone who wants *everyone* to have an extra slice of pizza and a cold beer.. This is madness - this is death and violence. I live in this world and I will not step aside for madness. I'm too young to die and too old to take a whoopin'. So I am armed. As is my Right against the Oligarchy. Come take my arms if you want them. But I won't give them up willingly - I haven't hurt anyone nor broken any laws. I am kind, law abiding, nurturing, caring and hard working and I'll not be disarmed and enslaved. I know that's hard to believe and understand but it's the Way for me and my Code.

VooDoo

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